The Get Ready Money Podcast

The Get Ready Money Podcast with Janine Firpo: Invest In Alignment With Your Values

• Tony Steuer

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On the latest episode of The Get Ready Money Podcast, I spoke with Janine Firpo, co-founder of Invest for Better and author of Motivate Your Money about changing the way we think about money and investing in alignment with our values. 

In this episode we discussed:

  • Transform your thinking: you can invest your money and grow your wealth in ways that give you the world you want to see.
  • Why you need to create an Investment Policy Statement. 
  • Where we collectively put our money has an impact. 
  • The sooner you start investing, the better you will be. 
  • How Invest for Better Empowers Women

Janine Firpo is the Co-Founder, Invest for Better. Janine is a seasoned values-aligned investor and social innovator, with a long history of working at the intersection of women and their money. From the early years of Apple Computer to senior positions with Hewlett-Packard, the World Bank, and the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, Janine has always found herself making an impact. In 2017 she left a successful 35-year career in technology and international development to focus on how women can create a more just and equitable society through their financial investments. Her book, Activate Your Money: Invest to Grow Your Wealth and Build a Better World, a collaborative effort that involved almost 150 women (and a few men) was published in May 2021 by Wiley. Later that year, Janine co-founded Invest For Better, a non-profit organization that helps women invest their money in ways that align with their values.

Connect with Janine Firpo:

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/janine-firpo-047282/

Invest for Better website: www.investforbetter.org

Invest for Better YouTube Channel: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCLuMLrqokevlCVdMDmHAobw

Invest for Better Newsletter sign-up: https://investforbetter.org/newsletter/

Invest for Better LinkedIn community: https://www.linkedin.com/groups/8602858/

Invest for Better Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/InvestforBetterTPI/


Book: 

Activate Your Money: Invest to Grow Your Wealth and Build a Better World  (Amazon)

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Speaker 1:

Are you looking to get ready, be prepared and transform your financial future? Then you've come to the right place. This is the Get Ready Money Podcast with Tony Stewart, where Tony has insightful conversations with financial experts who are changing the way we think about money. Catch up on the latest financial trends and hear practical advice from Tony and his expert guests so you can build healthy habits that work, Be empowered with tips for implementing small changes that can have a big impact on your financial future. So sit back and get ready to hear from today's guest. So sit back and get ready to hear from today's guest.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to the Get Ready Money podcast changing the way we think about money. I'm pleased to be joined today by Janine Furba. Janine is a co-founder of Invest for Better and the author of Activate your Money. In this episode, we'll be discussing how we can change the way we think about money and taking a leap of faith. Janine, welcome to the Get Ready Money podcast. Thanks for joining us today.

Speaker 3:

Hi, it's so great to be here.

Speaker 2:

Thanks for having me, Tony, yeah it's great to have you, and you know, so let's get started. You know, tell us a little bit about yourself. What is your origin story?

Speaker 3:

Well, my origin story in this work is somewhat interesting. I had a varied career, first in high tech and then in international development, but because of that, I was doing work that really, really mattered to me, and about 15 years ago I realized that my money was not helping solve the problems that I was out in the world trying to help, and I decided that I needed to figure out a way to invest all of my assets in alignment with the things that I believed in and in a way that was supporting the world that I wanted to see. So I had this huge sort of aha moment at a conference. I went to a huge awareness that the way we invest our money and the impact that our money is having really, really matters, and I made a personal commitment to do that with all of my money, starting with my cash, and I did that. I was on that journey for about 10 years, I guess primarily with financial advisors, but none of them really got me where I wanted to be. So when I retired from my formal career about six years ago, I took my assets back. I started looking at this issue again. How could I really move my money in support of sustainability? How could I really move my money in support of sustainability, uplifting women, my local community, et cetera, and realize that we are at a point where anyone can invest their money in ways that align with their values, and they can do it without giving up financial return.

Speaker 3:

And it had been such an uphill battle for me to figure this out that I decided I wanted to make it easier for other people, particularly for women, who have been so left out of the financial conversation for so long, and so I decided against advice.

Speaker 3:

People told me not to do it, but I decided I'm going to write a book, and so I did. And when I set out to write the book, I realized that I was going to need some help because I'm not a financial advisor, and so I had about 40 women who are financial advisors or real experts in finance write early versions of the book for me, and then I rewrote everything to simplify it and have a single voice. And while I was writing the book, I met another woman named Ellen Remmer, who was putting women together in investment clubs to teach them how to invest in ways that aligned with their values, and that had always been a vision of my own, and so she and I joined forces once my manuscript was completed and in 2021, we kicked off Invest for Better, which is a nonprofit that teaches women how to invest, and how to invest in ways that align with their values.

Speaker 2:

That's awesome. So you know what was the inspiration? Where you knew it was time to start a company, Because you know many people go oh, you know, I'd like to start a company or I'd like to do this. What really sparked that moment for you?

Speaker 3:

Well, I think I've always been sort of an entrepreneur. Do this is you know what really sparked that moment for you? Well, I think I've always been sort of an entrepreneur, so this is not my first foray into small companies and startup companies. I've done that multiple times during my career, and when I retired from my last career, which is in international development, I knew that I was too young and too full of energy to just stop, and I sort of figured that something would emerge for me, and I was never in my wildest imaginations expecting this to be what emerged, but it was. It just started to.

Speaker 3:

I just started to have these inklings that I needed to write this book and that I really needed to put this kind of information out in the world, and then the opportunity for Invest for Better came along. I already had, interestingly enough, a nonprofit that I had kicked off in 2005. That was focused on women and money, but it was looking at microfinance, and it was looking at the role that microfinance could play in bringing women out of poverty, which is an area that I worked in for quite some time. And I had put that nonprofit on ice when I went to work for the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation, and we were able to resurrect that nonprofit, change its name to Invest for Better and move forward with a slightly altered women in money vision. So that's how it came to be.

Speaker 2:

That's awesome, yeah, and you know, when I've talked to other authors, as you know, they also say the same thing is that sort of a kind of you know, they knew it for a while and they've been thinking about it and it just recognizing the opportunity, and I think that's great advice for other people who are thinking of starting their own company. Writing the book is you. You know you have to do it when you start having that feeling, yeah, it's an amazingly fun road, I've got to say.

Speaker 3:

The book, to be honest, was a lot of work. But what ended up happening with me in terms of the book was I signed a publishing contract in January of 2020. And I had a date of November 1st that I had to turn in the manuscript. So I ended up in COVID when we were all forced inside writing a book. That's what I did and it actually, in a way, was really a gift for me because it was such a focused piece of work that I think if my normal life had been happening around me at the same time.

Speaker 3:

I may not have finished it in time, but I did finish it like a day before it was due.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, those deadlines can be stressful sometimes, but that's awesome, you know. So one of the things you know Invest for Better is, you know it's aimed at empowering women. So how does Invest for Better help empower women?

Speaker 3:

Well, we're doing this through a variety of ways. First we have a membership, so women join us. They become members for as little as $50 a year, and then we also have a variety of courses that we have. We in fact have about eight courses now, but the way we teach is in a investment circle model. So we have women who step up to facilitate they're often financial advisors who do that and they facilitate 90-minute meetings every two weeks and we have in these circles 8 to 20 women who actually come together and talk. So while we're imparting information, we're also providing a space where women can actually talk to each other about their money, and that is what is really sort of our secret sauce. And the thing that our members have told us they really love about Invest for Better is they've never had an opportunity to talk to other women about their money. So it's a really important way to learn and to hear what other women are doing and to share your own stories. And I think our members start to realize, oh you know, I maybe know a little bit more about this than I thought, or that woman what she just said. That's really great advice and input for me, our core curriculum, which runs over a three-month period gets women to start thinking about the stories we tell ourselves about money and how that can help or harm us If we're going to invest our values.

Speaker 3:

We help them figure out what their values are. And then we go into each of the asset classes, starting with cash, and we look at fixed income and we look at the stock market and we go into private investing and we talk about well, when you're investing in this asset class, what are some of your values, aligned Options and choices? What could that look like? So when women leave our core curriculum, they walk away with an investment policy statement which is telling them identifying for them. It's something they can use themselves if they are do-it-yourself investors, or something they can use with their financial advisors. That describes what their goals are financially and particularly around their impact investing.

Speaker 3:

And then we have advanced courses on things like how to invest with a gender lens or how to be an angel investor, or, if you want a values aligned financial advisor, how to invest with a gender lens or how to be an angel investor, or, if you want a values aligned financial advisor, how to find one. And then every month we have a couple of speakers who come and talk about different things financially focused. We also have somebody present an investment every month that this is something you could actually invest in right now, so it allows you to go a little deeper into particular investments. And then we also have open office hours with financial advisors so you can ask them anything. So those are just some of the things that we offer.

Speaker 2:

That's awesome and I think you know, from what I understand I think this applies to everybody is we don't talk about money that much. You know it can be taboo or we feel ashamed or we just don't have the opportunity. So I think having that space helps to break down some of those things. So that's, that's awesome. And for everybody watching or listening, of course, there will be links to Invest for Better, so you can check out the circles as well if you're curious about them. So, Janine, one of the things we talk about is that things are different for women. So what is different for women with money and investing?

Speaker 3:

Well, for a long time we've been told that we're not very good at this and we have been actively dissuaded from investing. So, and you know, shockingly, I learned that it wasn't until the late 1980s in some parts of this country that women could actually get a loan on their own without a man signing. The late 1980s, oh yeah, that's right.

Speaker 3:

States, right, it's crazy. So we have been actively dissuaded. We've told we're not good at math and we kind of believe all that stuff, which none of it's true. And, I'm happy to say, younger women are not buying into it anymore. So younger women are really stepping up to get more financially engaged.

Speaker 3:

But when we do invest, we actually outperform men by about 40 basis points to a full percent. And there was a great study done recently by Fidelity that looked at 5 million accounts over a 10-year period and they found that women outperform men by 40 basis points, consistently 40 basis points a year. And the reason is that we are risk aware. So a lot of people say that we're risk averse, but that is not actually the case. We just want to understand what we are getting ourselves into. Men are more likely to just take the risk without full understanding. They'll shoot from the hip a little bit more, and women are more likely to establish a strategy and then stick with that strategy. So we buy and sell less. We don't trade as often, which also has positive implications on your financial return over the long term. So we just have a different approach.

Speaker 3:

The other thing that I think is really important and speaks to what I do is that we care deeply about what our money is doing. So, for example, when I worked in the world of microfinance, if you gave a loan to a woman to help bring her out of poverty, the first thing she did when she had a little bit more money was she got her kids better food, she fed her kids and once that was handled, she put them in school. That was not what the men did if they got a little bit more money. And that same kind of care and concern about our children, our society, our environment we support each other, about other women those kinds of things translate very much into our cares in this country about how our money is invested, in what it's doing in the world yeah, I, I think there's so many things you said that are so impactful.

Speaker 2:

But, yeah, it is what you're talking about, as I noticed it in my consulting practices that men are driven by very different things than women. Women are looking to make sure that their families are safe and secure. That you know. They're looking at that long-term outlook where the men are looking at. You know costs and returns and you know all those things and, as you point out, they're not looking always at the long term and sticking to their long term philosophy and goals. Women are tending to think, ok, well, what's our retirement going to look like? You know, what's this going to look like for our kids? What's the impact on the family? So I think that's amazing and I think that's good for men to hear this message too. It'll help you with your own personal finance. So, if you're a man, listen to this message. So, yeah, so you know. One of the other big things you talk about and is really you know, I think, at the core of what you do is you know values. So why is it important to invest your money in alignment with your values?

Speaker 3:

Well, I think it's a couple of things. So first, on a personal level, it just really feels good. I mean, I don't think we think about the fact that our money is sort of an extension of who we are and a lot of, and I don't think we think about the fact of what our money is actually doing. You know, it was Milton Friedman who put us on this course 70 years ago, suggesting that the only thing that matters is shareholder value. It's not true. That is not a given fact of the universe. It is something that some guy came up with 70 years ago and we have basically built our financial systems on it for the last 70 years. There's actually a lot more at stake and I think we can see the implications of that kind of thinking right. So I think that we don't think about what our money is invested in and when we are made aware of it. It really matters to people, and to women in particular, and it helps us feel more integrity in integrity with who we are, because so much of our lives is about, as we were saying, about our kids, about the world we're leaving to them, about the world we're leaving to our grandchildren, our communities, these kinds of things. So I think it really matters on a personal level, but I think where it really makes a difference is on the collective level. So when you start to think about what money pursues, it's really important.

Speaker 3:

In fact, today I read an article in the newspaper where the CEO of Coinbase was talking about something because he made a political contribution, and he said money moves the needle. For better or for worse, that's how our system works and it's true Money moves the needle. So where we collectively put our money really matters. It determines so many things, and McKinsey and Company did some research and that they found, because of this enormous wealth transfer that is going on right now the biggest wealth transfer this country has ever seen women by 2030, which is not that far away are gonna control a majority of money in this country. So how we collectively choose to invest can literally change the economy Literally change the economy. So for me, that's really a big part of why this matters.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, and I think you know. For those who are familiar with Milton Friedman is you know, as you point out, he was a well-known economist from what? The 70s and 80s for the most part, but a lot of his theories, I think, have been disproved recently. Or you know, like you talk about his companies, you know for decades have been just managing for profits and shareholder returns and now we're starting to think a little bit beyond that about maybe their customers and their employees and the world.

Speaker 3:

It's. You know, that thinking and some of the other things that have gone on, you know, politically have led us to one of the biggest wealth disparities that we've seen in this country in a very long time. The rich have gotten much, much richer and our levels of poverty have increased dramatically. I mean, when I made the choice in the mid 90s to start working in sub-Saharan Africa, I did it because I saw levels of poverty there that I'd never seen before. That is no longer the case. The kind of poverty we see in this country has gotten really bad, and things are improving in some of the African nations that I worked in. So, yeah, I think that our financial system is ripe for some change, and I like to think that women can help lead the way toward that change.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I think women can as well. But you know, like you talk about with the disparity of wealth, is you know, one of the measures is you know, the average compensation for CEOs and the multiple of the lowest paid employee. It's so out of whack, you know. You know well, I'm not a fan of a lot of things. Henry Ford is. One thing he said that I thought was brilliant is that he wanted we wanted his lowest paid employees to be able to purchase a Ford car and to have a comfortable house. You know, and I think that's brilliant is you know, if your employees can't afford to buy your products, what are you doing?

Speaker 3:

It's a really great point. It's a really great point.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, it's always something I come back to. So you know, as you talk about collectively, but you know, I know that you also firmly believe in individuals. So how can we, as individuals, change the world for the better?

Speaker 3:

So there are many ways that we can do that. Obviously, I have always believed in the power of one to change the world, and I love that Margaret Mead quote that says never underestimate I'm going to get the quote wrong, but it's basically never underestimate the power of a few individuals to change the world. They're the only ones that ever do right, so it's generally small groups of people. So there are many, many ways that we can change the world. But when it comes to our money, you can think of something as simple as where you keep your savings account. So if you keep your savings account in a major bank, you have no idea what they're doing with your money. They're using your money somehow, but what are they doing with it you don't know. And if you actually start uncovering what they're doing, chances are they're supporting things that you may not really like or that you actually march on the streets or you complain to your spouse about, or they give you anxiety. So you could simply take your savings and you could move it to a local community bank, to a financial institution that's serving underserved people or that's providing loans to women who have really hard times getting loans, or that are supporting non-profit organizations.

Speaker 3:

So there are many, many financial institutions that are doing great things in the world. I just bought a CD, for example, at like 5.3%, at a bank that is investing in providing loans to people who want to buy electric vehicles or solar lighting. So what they do is really try to advance alternative forms of energy. That's one of my banks. You can make those kinds of choices. You can choose to invest in small farmers. There are many things you can do and these alternative banks, for example, are all FDIC insured or they're insured by the government under another program called NCUA. So they're insured your moneyIC insured or they're insured by the government under another program called NCUA.

Speaker 3:

So they're insured your money is just as safe as it would be in a big bank. So that's just a tiny thing you could do, but there are many, many other things you can do across your portfolio that helps you invest your money in more meaningful ways.

Speaker 2:

Well, that's awesome and I think that's great advice for people, and you know, I know that you know also for people of color. You know that this is a big thing, is you know? So, look for entities that support people of color. You know that lend to, let's say, black businesses. You know that there are those entities out there and they can help you in multiple ways. You know that there are those entities out there and they can help you in multiple ways. You know, as well as furthering where your heart is. So, janine, let's jump into the get ready questions. The first one is what is one simple thing you can do each year to set yourself up for financial success?

Speaker 3:

Look at what you're invested in.

Speaker 3:

It's absolutely essential that, at least once a year, you look at all of the things that you hold in your portfolio and you track how those things have performed from the last year.

Speaker 3:

If you've gone through a process of thinking about how you allocate your assets like, how much do you have in cash, how much do you have in fixed income, how much do you have in stock, how much do you have in private, how much do you have in real estate, how much do you have in crypto, whatever the thing is that you're invested in if you've made some decisions around how that money is allocated percentage-wise, then look at where things have led you at the end of the year, because most likely, some things will have done well, other things may not have done as well and your percentages may not be in sync with your original goals anymore. So it's good to look at that and make adjustments if you need to make adjustments, but it's also important to just keep abreast of is your money really growing and achieving the goals and objectives that you had set out originally? So look at least once every year. I look every quarter, but I think once a year is essential.

Speaker 2:

And definitely not daily, though.

Speaker 3:

Oh gosh, that's how you get into the problem of wanting to trade or going crazy.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, so is that one of the reasons why you encourage people to develop an investment plan, so they have something to measure up to?

Speaker 3:

I think it's really important. I think that if you have a strategy and a plan and this is what women tend to do a little bit better than men is you don't get concerned or as concerned if the market dips, you don't start to react immediately just because the market is reacting. If you have a plan and you trust it and your plan is a longer term plan, then you can ride those waves of the market better than if you don't have that plan.

Speaker 2:

I love it. I encourage people, you know, in my new book, the Get Ready Blueprint because that's one of the things I encourage people to do is, if they haven't created an investment plan, to create their own personal investment plan. So I love it. But you know, that's the other thing. As you point out, it is that measuring stick. You know, if you want to align with your values and you have that in your investment plan, people can go back and say, oh yeah, this investment is no longer in line with my values. And I think that's important because companies do change what they do and banks do change where they loan their money or whatever. So, but if you're not, measuring it so.

Speaker 3:

You know. The other thing is, I think investment planning can feel really scary and hard to some people. So I think that is an area where it pays to pay someone to help you. So even if you don't want a long term financial advisor who's going to take a percentage of whatever money they're managing for you every year, having somebody help you think about the planning aspect I think can be really really valuable, particularly if you don't really know what you're doing or you're not 100% comfortable with that. That aspect of it because sometimes, particularly earlier in people's financial lives, the plan is is really critically important.

Speaker 3:

And one of the women who helped me write my book reminded me at one point.

Speaker 3:

She wrote a chapter on like my finance 101 chapter, and she reminded me that the decisions we make about how we allocate our assets are actually more important to our financial health than the specific investments we make. Because if, for example something women have tended to do because it's what we're taught if we save but we keep all of that savings in cash over the long term, that money is not going to grow and we're not going to end up with what we want, right? If, on the other hand, we put everything we own into the stock market and then we need our capital back and the market happens to be low. We're not in a good situation either. So really thinking through that balancing based on your age and your goals and so on, I think it's just really essential. And then those things change, too right? It's not like you're going to have exactly the same plan year after year after year as things in your life change. So staying on top of that, I think, is really important.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, that's awesome advice. So, janine, what is one habit that people can change when it comes to their money?

Speaker 3:

One habit I think is inertia, so I think it is way too frequent for us to just keep putting things off, to think that it doesn't matter, we can do that another day. The data shows that the younger you are and the sooner you start investing, the better off you're going to be in the long run. Even if all you're saving is small buckets of money, it doesn't matter. Just getting in that habit of investing. Saving and investing on a regular basis is so important. I just met somebody the other day.

Speaker 3:

She's 60 and she's just starting to think about her retirement and she was giving me a little bit of information about kind of where she is financially and I just thought, oh my God, I don't know if she's going to make, I don't know if she's going to have what she needs. You know, that is not when you want to start it. It is not when your husband suddenly passes away or you get divorced. It is not that far down the line. It's like I started investing when I was in my twenties.

Speaker 2:

I am so grateful that I did so, grateful yeah, and you know that that's great advice is going to start as soon as you can, um, but you know you have to start. Today's the best day to start.

Speaker 3:

Absolutely. If you haven't started yet, then today is the best day to start. Get over the inertia. It's worth it. You know it's. Yeah, please don't be. Please don't be some of the people that I've heard oh no.

Speaker 2:

So you know, let's get out the time machine for a minute. So you know, let's get out the time machine for a minute. What advice would you?

Speaker 3:

give your younger self if you could go back in time knowing what you know now about money. So that's a really, it's a really interesting question. I mean, so much has changed in my own time. You know, when I started investing back in the 80s, the way you invested was you picked individual companies in the stock market. That's what I did, and then I realized, oh, that's a lot of work. So when index funds started to come along, I was like that is way easier. So I did that and you know, I went along that way for a really long time.

Speaker 3:

I think what I didn't know as my personal wealth started to grow I mean, there are books out there I've read them that basically say all you have to do is pick one vanguard broad market stock fund, cost bond fund and then you're done, never have to worry about your money again.

Speaker 3:

That is such bad advice in my view, particularly if your wealth is growing. What? One of the things that you want is to diversify, and I didn't even know that some of these options were available to me until I was probably in my 50s, and one of the things that I've gotten involved in in my later years is private investing, which has been a successful vehicle for me. So I think if I gave myself advice back then, I would say be open to things that you haven't really thought about before, experiment with them a little bit to see if they work for you or not, and always do your due diligence. Because when I first started investing in private deals the first one that I did I invested based on emotion. I thought, oh, oh, this is so cool, and three months later the company was basically out of business. Oh yeah.

Speaker 2:

I think we've all been there, you know, letting our emotions get the better of us, or, yeah, all these different things you know. So, to wrap up, what is your number one tip on changing the way we think about money?

Speaker 3:

So for me, the number one tip is to really transform your thinking that it is just this inert thing that you put into whatever to get a return. I would like you to realize that you can invest your money to grow your wealth and you can invest it in ways that create the world that you want to see. You have that power and you can do that without giving a financial return, can do that without giving a financial return, and it feels so much better when you do. It's like it's like a baking analogy for me. I know this is a little weird, but it's like investing is like the cake. You got to do that, but the icing is when you put it, you put your heart into it, when you put your values into it and when you really start to create change with your money. And who wants to eat a cake with no icing?

Speaker 2:

For me, icing is the best part. Now I'm thinking about cake. No, but that's wonderful advice is you know that you can do these things? You know it takes a little time, it takes a little effort, but that's true for anything. There's nothing that comes with no effort.

Speaker 3:

And actually the values piece is not a lot more effort than the cake piece, I mean than the traditional finance piece. The hard part of this whole thing is figuring out the investing pieces. It's the asset allocation, it's how investing works, it's how the stock market works. It's all of that. When it comes to actually picking the things that you want to invest in in any asset class, you're going to have to go through that exercise anyway. There are tools that are available, freely available on the web. There are tools that are available, freely available on the web. There are ways that you can make those choices with your values just as easily as you could make those choices without your values. So why wouldn't you integrate your values into those choices if it's not that much more work?

Speaker 2:

That's awesome. That's awesome advice. That's the mic drop. So, Janine, where can people learn more about you and invest for better?

Speaker 3:

So you can find me on the web. I'm on LinkedIn and on Instagram you can also find my book. Activate your Money, invest to Grow your Wealth and Build a Better World. Anywhere where books are sold and Invest for Better is investforbetterorg, so you can find me there too, and my personal email is just first initial of my name, j. My last name, f-i-r-p-o at investforbetterorg.

Speaker 2:

Awesome and I would encourage everybody to check out the work that Janine's doing and Invest for Better. It's phenomenal stuff, especially if you're an intermediate investor. You've got the basics and you really want to get into it. You know, instead of just when your 401k enrollment comes around taking the default investment options. This is your chance and your opportunity to figure out a different way to enhance that. So you know, for everybody watching and listening, as always, I will have links to Janine's books to invest for better so that you can get in touch with her and what she's doing. So, janine, thanks for joining us today on the Get.

Speaker 3:

Ready Money podcast. Thank you, it's been a pleasure. I really appreciate it.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, no, this is great. Thanks for sharing your insights and thank you everyone, as always, for tuning into this episode of the Get Ready Money podcast. If you learned something today, please subscribe and share with a friend. Let's change the way we think about money. Until next time, you

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